miketcool
Oct 7, 04:22 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, a cupcake is going to take down iPhone?
We currently have Donut. Eclair is coming, followed by many others. I will always take a nice pastry over an apple any day of the week. :D
We currently have Donut. Eclair is coming, followed by many others. I will always take a nice pastry over an apple any day of the week. :D
rdowns
Apr 15, 11:17 AM
By hateful things, you're talking about people like the Westboro Baptist Church and their picket signs, right?
Hate is hardly confined to the wingnut branch of religion.
Hate is hardly confined to the wingnut branch of religion.
rxse7en
Oct 11, 06:34 AM
If Apple wants to be aggressive, it will happen next month. But if they don't, it could be as late as January. I am sitting on a large pile of cash to buy one the day they are added to the configure page. Love the Dell Screens. They have refurbished 30" models for $1349 now. :eek: :)
I know no one here likes to read my stories of inadequate power, but even with the Quad G5 and that cheap 2GHz Dual Core G5 I picked up at Fry's, I still have to put my Multi-Threaded Workload into a Queue that all runs much slower than it will with 8 cores. I am very excited about the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro.
I was one click away from buying a refurb 2.66 Mac Pro last evening and decided to wait until next month to see what Apple brings to the table. I've sold off my Quicksilver, Pismo, G4 AL 'book, and G4 Mini and picked up a MBP and MB now all I need is a new tower and my Intel transition is complete. Aside from the lack of UB CS2 apps it's been a great transition.
Now I have to get rid of two 21" Viewsonic CRTs and upgrade my displays. I was able to check out the Dell 24" display and it's pretty sweet, but on Friday Costco will have the Viewsonic 22" LCDs on sale for $300 each. For the less than the price of a 24" I could pick up two 22" LCDs. Granted they are lower resolution, but I think the extra monitor makes up for that missing real estate. Any feedback on this is appreciated.
B
I know no one here likes to read my stories of inadequate power, but even with the Quad G5 and that cheap 2GHz Dual Core G5 I picked up at Fry's, I still have to put my Multi-Threaded Workload into a Queue that all runs much slower than it will with 8 cores. I am very excited about the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro.
I was one click away from buying a refurb 2.66 Mac Pro last evening and decided to wait until next month to see what Apple brings to the table. I've sold off my Quicksilver, Pismo, G4 AL 'book, and G4 Mini and picked up a MBP and MB now all I need is a new tower and my Intel transition is complete. Aside from the lack of UB CS2 apps it's been a great transition.
Now I have to get rid of two 21" Viewsonic CRTs and upgrade my displays. I was able to check out the Dell 24" display and it's pretty sweet, but on Friday Costco will have the Viewsonic 22" LCDs on sale for $300 each. For the less than the price of a 24" I could pick up two 22" LCDs. Granted they are lower resolution, but I think the extra monitor makes up for that missing real estate. Any feedback on this is appreciated.
B
Povilas
Oct 7, 02:14 PM
Cause it's not. I played with the iPhone SDK for a test app and had to relearn a few things. For example, the + or - in front of a method, which means instance or class method (or vice-versa). I could find the right information (or Google keywords) to get it without a few bouts of swearing.
Then my company got a contract to port an iPhone app to Android. And by port I mean rewrite since we can't share anything from obj-c to Java.
Coming from a C/C++ background, the learning curve was really quick. Plus Google did a relatively good job with its SDK and emulator which work pretty well on both Mac and Windows.
For me Objective-C is user-friendly enough.
Then my company got a contract to port an iPhone app to Android. And by port I mean rewrite since we can't share anything from obj-c to Java.
Coming from a C/C++ background, the learning curve was really quick. Plus Google did a relatively good job with its SDK and emulator which work pretty well on both Mac and Windows.
For me Objective-C is user-friendly enough.
Mord
Jul 12, 06:42 AM
my scanner came with photoshop 5.
myamid
Sep 12, 07:14 PM
From one enthusiast to another, we agree to disagree on your points b through e -- As far as point A, I think you should rewatch what Jobs said today. And view the apple press release on the device.
Fair enough :)
Fair enough :)
ryme4reson
Oct 12, 05:49 PM
Can some1 run this from within VPC. I believe that VPC is supposed to emulate the 486, so I am interested in finding out if they process is handled different, even though its a G4. Sure it will not be fast (emulatin) but i would be interested in seeing the results.
EDIT: ddtlm, are you interested in helping me with X86 assembly? I would be willing to pay for your time. Email me at jamesk777@mac.com or IM me at ryme4reson (AOL) Thanks
EDIT: ddtlm, are you interested in helping me with X86 assembly? I would be willing to pay for your time. Email me at jamesk777@mac.com or IM me at ryme4reson (AOL) Thanks
sososowhat
Sep 12, 03:22 PM
The price seems high to me - I wonder if they'll cut it to $249 or $199 before the actual release. Also, does this act like an Airport Express for extending WiFI range?
alexeismertin
Aug 29, 12:10 PM
I hate people who are soo stuck up Apples arsehole that rather than accept Apple are poor environmentally, still stick up for a computer company.
It might not affect you, or the people on your street, or your city but somewhere in the world the impact of Apples actions are being felt.
I'll accept its not just Apple but this site is about Apple so lets not compare or excuse to justify Apples actions.
Big profits Big responsibilty
It might not affect you, or the people on your street, or your city but somewhere in the world the impact of Apples actions are being felt.
I'll accept its not just Apple but this site is about Apple so lets not compare or excuse to justify Apples actions.
Big profits Big responsibilty
javajedi
Oct 11, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by ddtlm
javajedi:
Admittedly I am getting lost in what all the numbers people have mentioned are for, but looking at these numbers you have here and assuming that they are doing the same task, you can rest assured that the G3/G4 are running far inferior software. AltiVec and SSE2 or not, there is just nothing that can explain this difference other than an unfair playing field. There is no task that a P4 can do 11x or 12x the speed of a G4 (comparing top-end models here). The P4 posseses nothing that runs at 11x or 12x the speed. Not the clock, not the units, the bandwidth to memory and caches are not 11x or 12x as good, it is not 11x better at branch prediction. I absolutely refuse to accept these results without very substantial backing because they contradict reality as I know it. I know a lot about the P4 and the G4, and I know a lot about programming in a fair number of different languages, even some assembly. I insist that these results do not reflect the actual performance of the processors, until irrefutable proof is presented to show how they do.
I guess the 70 and 90 don't surprise me a lot for the G3/G4, depending on clock speed difference. But all this trendy wandwagon-esque G4-bashing is not correct just cause every one else is doing it. There are things about the G3 that are very nice, but the G4 is no slouch compared to it, and given the higher clock that it's pipeline allows, the G3 really can't keep up. The G4 not only sports a better standard FPU, but it also sports better integer units.
Keep in mind this test does not reflect balanced system performance. The point of this exercise has been to determine how the G4's FPU compares to an assortment of different processors and operating systems.
I'd like to know you you qualify "inferior software" on the x86. If the P4 is some how cheating, then all of the other processors are cheating as well. Again, we ran the exact same code. We even made it into C code on the mac for maximum speed. In fact I'd like for you to check the code out for yourself, so you can see there is no misdirection here. Keep in mind, other people here have ran it on Athlons in Linux and still get sub 10 second times. I've also had a friend of mine (who i can trust) run it under Yellow Dog on a G4, he got 100+ seconds. And I did not tell him the scores we've been getting on the Mac, I had him run the test first and tell me how long it took before I even said anything. The JRE and now Mac OS X have been factored out of this equation.
When you look at operations like these, for example scalar integer ops, that's all register. The fsb, bsb, or anything else doesn't matter. This is a direct comparison between the two units on the G4 vs everything else. Also, my question to you is, in what way are the integer and fpu units "better" in the G4? I did not build the chip so I can't say weather they are better or not better than those in the 750FX, but I can say I've ran a fair benchmark comparing the FPU on the G4 from everything to a P4, Athlon, C3, G3, different operating systems, on x86 Windows and Linux, and on the Mac, Mac OS X and Yellow Dog. The results are consistent across the board. What more "proof" do you want?
javajedi:
Admittedly I am getting lost in what all the numbers people have mentioned are for, but looking at these numbers you have here and assuming that they are doing the same task, you can rest assured that the G3/G4 are running far inferior software. AltiVec and SSE2 or not, there is just nothing that can explain this difference other than an unfair playing field. There is no task that a P4 can do 11x or 12x the speed of a G4 (comparing top-end models here). The P4 posseses nothing that runs at 11x or 12x the speed. Not the clock, not the units, the bandwidth to memory and caches are not 11x or 12x as good, it is not 11x better at branch prediction. I absolutely refuse to accept these results without very substantial backing because they contradict reality as I know it. I know a lot about the P4 and the G4, and I know a lot about programming in a fair number of different languages, even some assembly. I insist that these results do not reflect the actual performance of the processors, until irrefutable proof is presented to show how they do.
I guess the 70 and 90 don't surprise me a lot for the G3/G4, depending on clock speed difference. But all this trendy wandwagon-esque G4-bashing is not correct just cause every one else is doing it. There are things about the G3 that are very nice, but the G4 is no slouch compared to it, and given the higher clock that it's pipeline allows, the G3 really can't keep up. The G4 not only sports a better standard FPU, but it also sports better integer units.
Keep in mind this test does not reflect balanced system performance. The point of this exercise has been to determine how the G4's FPU compares to an assortment of different processors and operating systems.
I'd like to know you you qualify "inferior software" on the x86. If the P4 is some how cheating, then all of the other processors are cheating as well. Again, we ran the exact same code. We even made it into C code on the mac for maximum speed. In fact I'd like for you to check the code out for yourself, so you can see there is no misdirection here. Keep in mind, other people here have ran it on Athlons in Linux and still get sub 10 second times. I've also had a friend of mine (who i can trust) run it under Yellow Dog on a G4, he got 100+ seconds. And I did not tell him the scores we've been getting on the Mac, I had him run the test first and tell me how long it took before I even said anything. The JRE and now Mac OS X have been factored out of this equation.
When you look at operations like these, for example scalar integer ops, that's all register. The fsb, bsb, or anything else doesn't matter. This is a direct comparison between the two units on the G4 vs everything else. Also, my question to you is, in what way are the integer and fpu units "better" in the G4? I did not build the chip so I can't say weather they are better or not better than those in the 750FX, but I can say I've ran a fair benchmark comparing the FPU on the G4 from everything to a P4, Athlon, C3, G3, different operating systems, on x86 Windows and Linux, and on the Mac, Mac OS X and Yellow Dog. The results are consistent across the board. What more "proof" do you want?
Scarlet Fever
Jul 12, 01:26 AM
Sorry but I think I have lost hope for OS X
Funny choice, noting your username...
Apple can't afford to use anything less that 4 x 2.5GHz for their high-end machine, because on paper, it doesnt look as impressive. If Intel cant get the hardware right, Apple should just upgrade the G5 and wait till Intel can get 16x PCI, 4 cores, etc.
Just a moment of reflection... a year ago, if someone asked us which Intel chip we thought would find its way into a PowerMac , we would probably curse them for blasphemy :rolleyes: . Now were having a poll, and getting excited about the prospect of Woodcrest chips...
As to the poster who wished for the Apple Mac, i think that would be brilliant. i want a machine which i can put new parts in, but doesn't cost me an arm to buy. Here, the base model G5 powermac is around 3000, which is out of my price range. If they introduced something like the iMac, but with user replaceable parts, i think they would sell well.
Funny choice, noting your username...
Apple can't afford to use anything less that 4 x 2.5GHz for their high-end machine, because on paper, it doesnt look as impressive. If Intel cant get the hardware right, Apple should just upgrade the G5 and wait till Intel can get 16x PCI, 4 cores, etc.
Just a moment of reflection... a year ago, if someone asked us which Intel chip we thought would find its way into a PowerMac , we would probably curse them for blasphemy :rolleyes: . Now were having a poll, and getting excited about the prospect of Woodcrest chips...
As to the poster who wished for the Apple Mac, i think that would be brilliant. i want a machine which i can put new parts in, but doesn't cost me an arm to buy. Here, the base model G5 powermac is around 3000, which is out of my price range. If they introduced something like the iMac, but with user replaceable parts, i think they would sell well.
2ndPath
Sep 26, 03:13 AM
I wonder whether Apple will keep the two Woodcrest quad-core configuration, or whether they introduce a new single CPU quad-core one for the new low end. When Apple switched to the dual-core G5, they replaced the dual CPU lower end systems by single CPU dual-core systems, which was suspected to reduce the building cost of the system.
Eidorian
Jul 13, 07:17 AM
Like I said, my laptop has a hotter CPU in it. I've yet to hear a good argument as to why a Conroe is too hot to put in an iMac when they had G5's in them not so long ago. If a Macbook can handle 35W then the much much bigger and thicker iMac can handle 65W.
The below lists power consumed by the part, they are not TDP numbers (only part of the power consumed by a chip leaves the chip as heat, heat is what you have to dissipate and is what TDP attempts define).
PPC 970fx power optimized part (@ 2GHz)
40W average, 45-50 W max, 23 W throttle back (half frequency)
PPC 970fx standard part (@ 2GHz)
48W average, 55-60 W max, 29 W throttle back (half frequency)
To me this puts the PPC 970fx below the TDP of a Conroe... I would say the TDP for the PPC 970fx (@2Ghz) is around 40 W (if not lower).Conroe might be possible for the iMac. But why redesign the motherboard when you can just DROP IN Merom where Yonah once was?
The below lists power consumed by the part, they are not TDP numbers (only part of the power consumed by a chip leaves the chip as heat, heat is what you have to dissipate and is what TDP attempts define).
PPC 970fx power optimized part (@ 2GHz)
40W average, 45-50 W max, 23 W throttle back (half frequency)
PPC 970fx standard part (@ 2GHz)
48W average, 55-60 W max, 29 W throttle back (half frequency)
To me this puts the PPC 970fx below the TDP of a Conroe... I would say the TDP for the PPC 970fx (@2Ghz) is around 40 W (if not lower).Conroe might be possible for the iMac. But why redesign the motherboard when you can just DROP IN Merom where Yonah once was?
Winni
Apr 21, 03:21 AM
Android is to Windows, as iOS is to Mac OS.
The similarities are astounding � Google is doing the same thing Microsoft did back in the day.
As much as Apple cares about marketshare, the experience is more important to them then the product itself. That's really something.
If they really cared that much about user experience, then iOS wouldn't be the Walled Garden that it is and iTunes wouldn't be such a royal pain in the neck to use.
Just an anecdote from my last week with an iPhone and a first generation Google G1 phone (which I have to use when I'm on 7/24-on call-duty): I moved to a new house where I do not yet have a DSL line and also no 3G/UMTS connectivity. Both the iPhone and the G1 use Deutsche Telekom, and while the iPhone always tells me that "it cannot activate the data network", the G1 manages to give me Internet access at the same location with the same carrier.
So in real world use, the iPhone lets me down while the Android phone does not.
The similarities are astounding � Google is doing the same thing Microsoft did back in the day.
As much as Apple cares about marketshare, the experience is more important to them then the product itself. That's really something.
If they really cared that much about user experience, then iOS wouldn't be the Walled Garden that it is and iTunes wouldn't be such a royal pain in the neck to use.
Just an anecdote from my last week with an iPhone and a first generation Google G1 phone (which I have to use when I'm on 7/24-on call-duty): I moved to a new house where I do not yet have a DSL line and also no 3G/UMTS connectivity. Both the iPhone and the G1 use Deutsche Telekom, and while the iPhone always tells me that "it cannot activate the data network", the G1 manages to give me Internet access at the same location with the same carrier.
So in real world use, the iPhone lets me down while the Android phone does not.
jholzner
Oct 25, 10:57 PM
I can't really decide what to think of an 8 core mac pro.
Right now FCP barely uses all four of mine.
It seriously seems that they a) haven't updated software pending an OS update, ie; leopard, to take advavtage of them or b) more cores really only helps the multi-tasking.
In any case I think my mac pro isn't quite as fast as it could be sighting the activity of my cpus during a render.
HDV render = 60% on every core. WTF?
True but that new color correction software Apple just bought has some pretty steep requirements. I bet the next version of FCP will really be able to take serious advantage of their new wares. Also, I bet Leopard is going to be optimized to the limit for this type of hardware. Just my guess.
Right now FCP barely uses all four of mine.
It seriously seems that they a) haven't updated software pending an OS update, ie; leopard, to take advavtage of them or b) more cores really only helps the multi-tasking.
In any case I think my mac pro isn't quite as fast as it could be sighting the activity of my cpus during a render.
HDV render = 60% on every core. WTF?
True but that new color correction software Apple just bought has some pretty steep requirements. I bet the next version of FCP will really be able to take serious advantage of their new wares. Also, I bet Leopard is going to be optimized to the limit for this type of hardware. Just my guess.
G4er?
Apr 28, 08:56 AM
Apple might have held onto 3rd place if it had a mid range desktop computer positioned between the mini and the Pro.
I know I would have bought a new Mac instead of not buying anything.
I know I would have bought a new Mac instead of not buying anything.
NathanMuir
Apr 24, 11:49 AM
I figured I'd use this wonderful Easter Sunday (a day spent celebrating the beginning of Spring and absolutely nothing else), to pose a question that I have.... What's the deal with religious people? After many a spirited thread about religion, I still can't wrap my head around what keeps people in the faith nowadays. I'm not talking about those people in third world nations, who have lived their entire lives under religion and know of nothing else. I'm talking about your Americans (North and South), your Europeans, the people who have access to any information they want to get (and some they don't) who should know better by now. And yet, in thread after thread, these people still swear that their way is the only way. No matter what logic you use, they can twist the words from their holy books and change the meaning of things to, in their minds, completely back up their point of view. Is it stubbornness, the inability to admit that you were wrong about something so important for so long? Is it fear? If I admit this is BS, I go to hell? Simple ignorance? Please remember, I'm not talking about just believing in a higher power, I mean those who believe in religion, Jews, Christian, etc.
If you strike a bias and confrontational tone, you get one in return. ;)
And people wonder why PRSI conversations revolve in endless circles, rehashing the same tired subject matter...
If you strike a bias and confrontational tone, you get one in return. ;)
And people wonder why PRSI conversations revolve in endless circles, rehashing the same tired subject matter...
Groovey
Aug 30, 11:32 AM
Something just dawned on me. Like when Macrumors (or someone) posted that Rush Limbaugh was selling his broadcasts for MP3 players, people here were divided. And it's the same thing with Greenpeace. We're fighting over idealistic opinions.
Maybe we should focus our attention on fighting for the Apple and all its greatness (and some not-so-great things), instead of against each other.
Totally agreed. I think one part of the problem is that idealism quite often seems to drive people to have extreme opinions, or else it feels like they wouldn't be standing behind their own point of view. Everyone should at least try to realize the other side of the game no matter whether you're "huggin' trees with a joint" for GP or "shooting crappy hippypeople" for the government.
Peace out!
Maybe we should focus our attention on fighting for the Apple and all its greatness (and some not-so-great things), instead of against each other.
Totally agreed. I think one part of the problem is that idealism quite often seems to drive people to have extreme opinions, or else it feels like they wouldn't be standing behind their own point of view. Everyone should at least try to realize the other side of the game no matter whether you're "huggin' trees with a joint" for GP or "shooting crappy hippypeople" for the government.
Peace out!
KidStallyn
Mar 18, 11:47 AM
ATT already requires me to have data with an iPhone. There is NO option to say no. If they find that you have an iPhone without a data plan, they will make you add it. Regardless of how you obtained your phone.
Now, I "chose" the option to use "unlimited" data out of the 3 options. Data, therefore is defined as 1s and 0s at their basic level. Does it really matter if my phone is getting those 1s and 0s or if my phone is just a pass thru for those 1s and 0s. Does ATT incur any extra fees for those PCs 1s and 0s that they would not otherwise incur on the iPhones 1s and 0s. No. They do not. This is a great big scam to get an extra $20/month from those people who chose to get the plan. Is the tethering feature somethign that ATT designed on the phone?? I'm saying hardware and software. Did ATT design any software or Hardware on the phone that would allow or prohibit tethering. NO. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING required from ATT to enable tethering. Mi-Wi proves this.
I would understand if ATT developed an App like Mi-Wi that enabled tethering on your iPhone. Charge whatever they want. But the fact is, they did not do that. My phone is allowed to use unlimited number of 1s and 0s.
Now, I "chose" the option to use "unlimited" data out of the 3 options. Data, therefore is defined as 1s and 0s at their basic level. Does it really matter if my phone is getting those 1s and 0s or if my phone is just a pass thru for those 1s and 0s. Does ATT incur any extra fees for those PCs 1s and 0s that they would not otherwise incur on the iPhones 1s and 0s. No. They do not. This is a great big scam to get an extra $20/month from those people who chose to get the plan. Is the tethering feature somethign that ATT designed on the phone?? I'm saying hardware and software. Did ATT design any software or Hardware on the phone that would allow or prohibit tethering. NO. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING required from ATT to enable tethering. Mi-Wi proves this.
I would understand if ATT developed an App like Mi-Wi that enabled tethering on your iPhone. Charge whatever they want. But the fact is, they did not do that. My phone is allowed to use unlimited number of 1s and 0s.
leekohler
Apr 15, 12:20 PM
Insulting language never helps.
Here is a link to a *gasp* dictionary!
linky (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chastity)
Definition a and b.
Oh snap! :D That had to sting a little. ;)
Sorry. That was rude of me.
It's OK, but you were also wrong, as indicated by the dictionary. Let's try to bring it down a notch. ;)
Here is a link to a *gasp* dictionary!
linky (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chastity)
Definition a and b.
Oh snap! :D That had to sting a little. ;)
Sorry. That was rude of me.
It's OK, but you were also wrong, as indicated by the dictionary. Let's try to bring it down a notch. ;)
Digital Skunk
Apr 13, 08:28 AM
The shortcuts hasnt changed and it is possible to remap shortcuts so no need to worry.
I believe you. . . but do you have a link. I haven't dug around a lot for it yet. That's really my biggest concern with this update. When I read that they were optimizing the app for a single screen I cheered. Making everything fit in a single moveable window . . . . great. I do hope they take a cue from Adobe Premier, and make the palettes/windows auto dock and auto resize.
I love the UI tweaks. Puts the apps in-tune with the rest of the industry. Going to a white on black, dark interface that just about everything has now. Removing the tiny buttons scattered throughout the UI . . . also a plus.
If those details that we spent years waiting for in FCP7 leave or are changed for no reason then I'll be a little disappointed. If they've been left the same, and I can download the new app and hit the ground running . . . . (and there aren't any bugs like the current version, which is why I am happy for a rewrite from the ground up Apple style) then this is a very welcomed update.
I believe you. . . but do you have a link. I haven't dug around a lot for it yet. That's really my biggest concern with this update. When I read that they were optimizing the app for a single screen I cheered. Making everything fit in a single moveable window . . . . great. I do hope they take a cue from Adobe Premier, and make the palettes/windows auto dock and auto resize.
I love the UI tweaks. Puts the apps in-tune with the rest of the industry. Going to a white on black, dark interface that just about everything has now. Removing the tiny buttons scattered throughout the UI . . . also a plus.
If those details that we spent years waiting for in FCP7 leave or are changed for no reason then I'll be a little disappointed. If they've been left the same, and I can download the new app and hit the ground running . . . . (and there aren't any bugs like the current version, which is why I am happy for a rewrite from the ground up Apple style) then this is a very welcomed update.
skunk
Apr 23, 04:22 PM
The Old and New Testaments make up the Bible :confused:
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.Sorry, I misread your post... :o
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.Sorry, I misread your post... :o
kevin.rivers
Jul 12, 02:14 PM
man, my head is spinning...Yonah, Mermon, Woodcrest, Core Duo 2 (isn't that redundant?)
Don't you just long for the good old days when we'd get one G4 processor for 18 months? ;)
Yonah is Core Duo
Merom and Conroe are Core 2 Duo
Woodcrest is considered a Xeon
Don't you just long for the good old days when we'd get one G4 processor for 18 months? ;)
Yonah is Core Duo
Merom and Conroe are Core 2 Duo
Woodcrest is considered a Xeon
Dagless
Apr 13, 04:51 AM
Hmm, could be good. I've been using an old Final Cut that I bought whilst in university. Worked just fine for me but I only edit game trailers on it. If FCPX is that cheap in the UK too then I might just have to get it.
Maybe.
Apple have been doing a lot of simplifying of late and I hope it doesn't lose any depth.
Maybe.
Apple have been doing a lot of simplifying of late and I hope it doesn't lose any depth.